GliderIreland - Ireland RC Forum - Flying Model forum in Ireland
Gliders => Slope Soaring => Topic started by: antonio on December 12, 2012, 20:00:55 PM
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After 5 ARFs I thought I'd try building a kit. First ever, not sure if the Ninja is a good choice for rookies but it's too late now, have been working on it for the last two weeks!
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000930.jpg)
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Good Man Antonio! :clap:
So,…….how far have you got with building it? :?: Can you post some pictures of your work so far? We like to see pictures.
(“A picture paints a thousand words!”)
Keith
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Nice kit Antonio. It must be a pretty old kit. I have a magazine review from 1994 about it, QFI issue 6. The review says its an entry level aerobatic slope model, so it should be ok for you. Where did you get it from?
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Enjoy the build Antonio. There is a definite sense of satisfaction when you see something you've built flying.
Totally different to flying an ARTF.
Makes for a far broader hobby. :clap: You can build when you can't fly! :?:
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Yes Keith, I'm taking pictures, I hope you don't mind if they come with probably as many questions. A "learning build thread" of sorts.
Here's the first one. Plywood parts came in two ways, laser cut and die cut (probably a sign of its age, it's an old kit indeed, Alan, although still available - got it new from SMC). So many of the die cut pieces didn't want to come out without a (damaging) fight. I turned problematic pieces around and kind of guessed where the cut would be, cut with the blade, and eventually managed to get everything out without splinters. But is there a better way? Other than buying laser cut kit :)
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000931.jpg)
The offending ply fuse bits, die side down.
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Yea, die cut part can be a problem. :!: I’m just finishing a SIG model myself Antonio, and I had exactly the same problems as you.
I used a model knife to cut through from both sides any of the parts that would not press out.
I also came across many parts that did not have their part number printed on them. Some of the wing ribs looked exactly the same as each other, :? until I looked very closely, then I was able to see a difference between them and match them to their position on the plan.
I found it best to loosely assemble the parts, then check, and then double check before I glued anything together
The instructions made it sound very easy to construct, as if one could build the model in an afternoon! :roll:
Keith
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Very sharp blade and gradual scoring of the parts will see you through. As soon as you can see where the cut is, do it from the other side. Main point is to keep the blade sharp and go gently
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Started with the fuse. The laser cut parts with their nice straight edges made alignment quite easy. Everything held with rubber bands until perfectly (ha! :o ) straight, then glued. Dilemma: thin or thick CA? I ended up using both in a bit of a random way. Any difference in strength?
F3 is the star of the pic and also of many Ninja comments out there: apparently the fuse's weak point is around F3. I'll reinforce later.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000936.jpg)
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That would be the Riser, Keith? Yep, SIG don't like printing part numbers. With the Ninja, only the laser cut pieces (outer fuse pieces) were printed. Rest is guesswork.
OK, so I see there is no magic trick to handling partially cut ply. Straight lines were OK, but the blade doesn't like curves!
Here's the fuse with nose block and canopy guides glued.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000938.jpg)
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You did lightly sand the ply parts before gluing to remove any release wax? :?: :?:
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Yes Antonio, it is the Riser I’m building. :)
I found that the formers were slightly wider than the width of the top and bottom ply fuse sections. So to ensure a good fit I had to sand the sides of the formers down by about 1 - 1.5mm.
The construction of your Ninja looks just the same as my Riser except I had to shape the nose block myself. Grrrrr. :evil:
I think your Ninja has foam core wings, doesn’t it? My Riser has built up (Ribs and Spar) wings.
By the way, you asked about the differences between thick and thin CA glue. To my knowledge both types have the same ‘bonding’ (sticking) ability. The difference is that thick CA will fill any gaps there may be between the surfaces you’re joining. That’s the benefit of thick CA. The downside is that thick CA wont penetrate, (seep into) the wood.
On the other hand Thin CA will penetrate (Permeate is the posh word for it :roll: ) into the two pieces that are being joined together. This means the glue gets a better ‘grip’ or ’hold’ on each piece. (Whereas thick CA tends to just ‘lay’ on the surface of the pieces being joined.)
I hope you can understand this gibberish Antonio! :oops:
Keith
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You did lightly sand the ply parts before gluing to remove any release wax? :?: :?:
Would you believe they don't use release wax when making plywood!
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That blows that old wives tale out of the water then!
Every kit review I remember reading (when kits were actually built!), said lightly sand to remove any release agent!
You live & learn :?
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You did lightly sand the ply parts before gluing to remove any release wax? :?: :?:
Would you believe they don't use release wax when making plywood!
You scared me there for a second, Bill. I did sand the edges of all die cut parts, because they were not straight, but I left the laser cut ones alone. I assume a light sanding of all surfaces may be a good thing to do before covering (which I've never done before) but I am far from that right now.
Speaking of sanding, the fuse taking shape. The nose block came a tiny bit short, maybe half a mm, so I glued it flush on the left, then glued a small balsa bit on the right and sanded over to shape. Perhaps a consequence of what you said earlier Keith about the formers coming a bit overgrown!
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000950.jpg)
I have seen pictures of Ninjas where the nose was sanded down to an almost round shape, very pointy. I am thinking I should leave this one more square-looking, in line with the fuse. Any pros or cons about either approach?
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If you look at most models the nose is rounded. I would go that route.
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Off to the wings and a task I was dreading, described in the manual as "truing the edges" of all balsa sheeting parts. I got a nice hardened steel ruler from Homebase and gripped to the table on one end, held the other to shave all irregularities. I did something wrong or I simply have too idealistic views of the extent to which natural materials can be finished. But when gluing the sheeting together, I found there was a bit of warping. When the five pieces were glued along, the resulting skin was not flat, but raised above the worktop one or two mm here and there.
Gluing was also interesting. I used thin CA, with waxed paper underneath, but still had to pull stuck paper stretches a few times. No damage though.
Below are my finished wing skins, not exactly flat as you can see.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000958.jpg)
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I followed this video to glue the wings (starting from 3:00):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUoEAruPVAI
PU glue (I found Gorilla glue in Homebase), spread thin with a plastic card, bit of moisture in the air and to the press for 24 hours. Average humidity while gluing and curing was 65%.
With the exception of a couple of tiny spots where I spilled glue on the outside of the skin and had to sand a bit of mould foam, things went ok. Trimming the skins down to the core was scary (done by hand with blade, the planes I have seen look too heavy for the job) but it's done. Sanding was done handling the wing over worktop covered with 200 grit paper. Tricky - I wonder if there is a better way.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000979.jpg)
Next, gluing leading and trailing edges, and wingtips. PU or epoxy? If you feel strongly about one of those, please shout... soon :D
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Try a search for a Davids plane, small and handheld uses a double edged razor blade
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Try a search for a Davids plane, small and handheld uses a double edged razor blade
Thanks. This one perhaps? http://www.skykingrcproducts.com/accessories/david/david_razor_plane.html
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That's the one Antonio, but you can get them in the UK
http://www.4-max.co.uk/davids-razor-plane.htm
http://www.sloughrc.com/default.asp?itemid=T-DT4
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I followed this video to glue the wings (starting from 3:00):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUoEAruPVAI
Been watching that video. I have a foam core wing to make and I found it very interesting. (That guys’ accent makes me die! :lol: )
But it’s a very informative video, all-be-it a little ‘long winded’.
Well done for finding it Antonio :clap:
Keith
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I followed this video to glue the wings (starting from 3:00):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUoEAruPVAI
Been watching that video. I have a foam core wing to make and I found it very interesting. (That guys’ accent makes me die! :lol: )
But it’s a very informative video, all-be-it a little ‘long winded’.
Well done for finding it Antonio :clap:
Keith
Yes, the pace is a bit slow. Having done my wings I think perhaps he was using too much glue. That thing expands and will find its way out through every possible opening! Gluing the leading and trailing edges I used PU too, and where it found its way out, shaping and sanding was not easy!
Here's my LE done:
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001003b.jpg)
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Yea, nice profile, looking very good. :clap:
I don’t mind the plane’ing of parts to shape, (can’t think how to spell the correct word :evil: …..I want the verb for using a wood plane…Oh never mind!! :roll: ) it’s the sanding I don’t like.
I have to wear a mask to stop the dust getting down my throat, but then I find that my breath exits from the top of the mask and tends to fog up my spectacles. :x Coupled with that, everywhere in my small workshop gets covered with the dust as well.
When possible I do as much sanding as is practical in the garage , or in summer, out in the garden but that’s a bit of a ‘pain’ traipsing everything outside.
God, I sound like a grumpy old man don’t I! :roll:
K.
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God, I sound like a grumpy old man don’t I! :roll:
K.
Yep! :wink: Join the club, I'm a founder member!
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hey keith i hate sanding as well but i usually wait till a nice windy day and do it outside :D
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God, I sound like a grumpy old man don’t I! :roll:
K.
Yep! :wink: Join the club, I'm a founder member!
I think we should call it the GOLF club. (Grumpy Old Lazy Flyers club!) :lol:
BTW anyone heard anything of Richard lately? I haven’t seen him since the September Glide In
K.
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keith, Richards alive and well :D i haven't seen him since the last area meeting in November but i would get a text nearly everyday, he's in the man cave lol :D
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Thanks Andy, I’ll send him an application to the GOLF club as well! :lol:
I think I’ve rather hijacked Antonio’s topic, :oops: sorry Antonio……..how is the Ninja build coming? :D
More pictures please! 8)
Keith
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A bit late, but well done, looking very good so far :clap:
I had a Ninja a long time ago, and along with the Ridge Racer was one of my favorite glider at the time :D
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Thanks Andy, I’ll send him an application to the GOLF club as well! :lol:
I think I’ve rather hijacked Antonio’s topic, :oops: sorry Antonio……..how is the Ninja build coming? :D
More pictures please! 8)
Keith
Don't worry Keith, the only things that are hijacking this thread are my work and evening studies.
All I did during the week was glue the wingtip (a square block, just like your Riser's noseblock) and more carving! The instructions say rough shape only for now, so that's where I left them.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001009.jpg)
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A bit late, but well done, looking very good so far :clap:
I had a Ninja a long time ago, and along with the Ridge Racer was one of my favorite glider at the time :D
Thanks, Fred. Good to know. After much reading I decided to go for an unmodified version of the Ninja, so no rudder, no separate aileron servos, just standard build. Partly because I don't feel that comfortable making mods on my first non-ARF, and partly because many comments say it's a nice fun glider that way anyway.
So the only "mods" I am planning are fuse reinforcement, based on comments about its weak spot around F3, and maybe a ballast box.
Ah, these are the Ninja instructions btw: http://www.sigmfg.com/BuildManuals/SIGRC63NinjaP1.html
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OK Keith, more pictures!
Next was gluing the two wings together. I've read every possible opinion about Ninja dihedral but I went for the suggested 1 inch elevation at the wingtip. SIG claims the foam cores are already cut at the approximate angle for that, and I found that to be quite accurate. A tiny bit of sanding and I had a nice joint, went together with 30-min epoxy and taped in place.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001010.jpg)
And then the fixed portion of the trailing edge that houses the aileron rods. This is done by driving a bent rod through a brass tube that is concealed inside a grooved section of the trailing edge. Better seen than explained:
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_000993.jpg)
So what I found was that even pushing the brass tube all the way inside the trailing edge piece, the tube protuded just a tiny bit. I ended up sanding a very shallow groove in the wing, it seemed easier than deepening the existing one on that tiny piece! Here are the two wings glued together, with the right side of the trailing edge already in place, and the left side with a tiny groove being sanded. Once that was done, the piece would sit tightly and aligned just as required.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001012.jpg)
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Another new task for me, glass reinforcement. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, then placed the cloth on top and squeegeed with a bit of plastic-coated cardboard. Nice finish except at the edges where I had to cut the material, then threads would come loose and become quite unmanageable once soaked up in epoxy.
Now I'm dreading the task of reinforcing the outside of the fuse as I had planned - the glass cloth I have for that is quite coarse compared to this one provided by SIG, so more chances for fibre threads to go wild. Any suggestions to keep glass cloth edges under control?
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001014.jpg)
Starting to look like a wing...
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001015.jpg)
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Hmmm, very good I must say!
So what subject are you studying Antonio? English language perhaps? You have very good descriptive skills.
After browsing through those build instructions for your Ninja I thought you might like to make use of this little tip. I use it for some of my models where the fuse and wings are retained by nylon screws.
To explain the purpose of this modification first:
I found that despite being an expert rc pilot, (okay,… so I tell lies,) there were some occasions, (read, ‘often’) when the wind would suddenly change direction just as I was landing, or the ground would suffer a minor earth quake and momentarily rise up just as my plane was about to touch down. (Like I said,…I tell lies.) The net result of these totally unpredictable occurrences was that one wing tip would touch the ground before the fuse did. This resulted in a tremendous torque being applied to the wing / fuse area often resulting in damage to the afore mentioned parts of the airframe. :evil:
Having thought about this problem, I came to the following conclusion. That Force, being the Product of Inertia times Mass. Plus the fact that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and that E = MCC and that I was getting more and more pissed off at having to repair repairs that themselves were repairs :evil: ,…I came up with this solution.
Drill a shallow hole through the head of the nylon retaining screws. By weakening the screw thus, the head of the screw ‘pops off’ when exposed to excess stress thereby allowing the wing to separate from the fuse and saving damage to either part of the airframe. :P
The only downside of this solution is the need for a constant supply of fresh nylon screws until such time as one gets better at landing. (That’s why I’m still drilling nylon screws! :oops: )
Here’s one I drilled earlier…….
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Happy%20Days/drilled.jpg)
Keep up the good work Antonio,...Tally-Ho.
Keith
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Regarding the fiberglass finish, plastic bags are your friends. Not sure what the correct name is but it's the "soft" clear bags, not the ultra thin(noisy ones) but the more substansial ones.
Put them over when you've squeezed out most of the epoxy, "rub" them lightly down but beware that any crevises and folds will show up on the finished coat. This will give you an almost mirror smooth surface and help keep the edges neat.
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Thanks for the tip, Keith. Hmmm... weakened nylon bolts, great idea. The Ninja wing is fixed with a nylon bolt screwed directly into a piece of hardwood that is supposed to be "tapped". I don't know how to get one of those taps, which has an American thread (although equivalent to M5 I think) and I keep thinking that a blind nut would be better. Maybe I'll change that too.
My studies... they are about online and distance learning. How to enable learning through technology, etc. Years ago I used to write technical books and articles, if you think my writing is descriptive, maybe I still keep some of that!
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Regarding the fiberglass finish, plastic bags are your friends.
OK, I think I know the type of plastic you are talking about (increasingly harder to get here since the introduction of the shopping bag levy), but I have a stupid question for you: do you keep the bag while the epoxy cures, or remove it immediately after rubbing it smooth, half-way through the curing process, or...? As you see I have no clue if epoxy sticks to that kind of plastic. Ah, blissful ignorance. :?
Thanks for the tip! I'll try that with the fuse. Too late for the wing but fortunately the ugliest bits will be hidden from view.
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I let it cure with the plastic on, that gives the smooth finish.
You might want to do a test to see if the plastic you have sticks to the epoxy, food wrapping film doesn't stick but it is so thin that you'd probably have a hard time getting it go on without wrinkles.
I cut down sandwich bags.
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You can also use one of these long balloons that some guys in a usually weird costume uses to make dogs, spiders, swords etc etc :D
And of course, the condoms, and always fun to go in a pharmacy and ask for king size or bigger! :lol:
Always better to try to wrap the fuselage in one go. Cling film will work, but is a real pain to remove.
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You can also use one of these long balloons that some guys in a usually weird costume uses to make dogs, spiders, swords etc etc :D
And of course, the condoms, and always fun to go in a pharmacy and ask for king size or bigger! :lol:
Interesting... I'd love to see a picture of a fuse going through this process :D
Meanwhile, wing work continues... cutting out the servo space. I was concerned about hitting the bottom sheeting with the blade and damaging it but I found a way of combining blade and a flat screwdrive for scooping out the foam that left a reasonably straight servo housing. All lined with a generous layer of epoxy.
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001026%20%281%29.jpg)
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OK, so next was covering. Again, something I've never done before, so I started with a scrap piece, then the elevator, then moved on to the canopy, and finally did the entire fuse. I have no idea about what "finished" is - I used just enough heat to activate the glue and get things in place, and then increased temperature to get the material to shrink and get the right shape. But how far is good enough? I don't want to warp the model, so no extra heat applied where things looked OK. Reasonable approach? :?:
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001030.jpg)(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001031.jpg)
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001037.jpg)
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My "least favourite" activity so far: cutting hinge slots. Grrrr... I'm sure there is a Dremel accessory that makes this a 30-sec job. Maybe it's time to get one...
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/antonio/WP_001057.jpg)
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Glad to see you're sober enough to make an entry on the forum Antonio!
Yea, slot cutting is such fun! 8) I love it. :D (Not :( ) But look at it this way, wouldn’t life be boring if everything was easy? :wink:
Nice bit of covering by the way. You’re doing it the same way I do,….and as far as I know, just about everybody else does it as well.
Just one slight potential hick-up to warn you of. Black covering is a devil in hot sunshine. You might find it ‘bubbles’ or becomes loose if left in the summer sun, especially if left in the sun while inside your car. If we ever get another summer, best thing is to keep it in the shade until you come to fly it. (Just something to be aware of.)
So, what’s next? Tail feathers or wings?
Keith
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Antonio,
Nice job, looks as if you are being very thorough. I believe that Sig released that plane in the late '80's I always wanted one but never got one. I thought the colors were really cool and ended up actually using those colors on anotherglider I had scratch built, a "Ridge Rat." It was great as long as I was flying during a bright, sunny, cloudless, bright blue sky day. I loved the look and the way that I had done the color scheme but boy was it tough to see. I eventually stripped it down and recovered it in White, dark red, and metallic blue, shows up much better now. I actually still have it, hard to believe that it's now 28 years old. :shock:
Don't mean to discourage you if you've got a color scheme worked out but you might want to try to work some lighter colors in with the black fuse. My older brother just finished his Ninja last fall, I'll see if I can aquire some pictures of it, he did a beautiful job. He always does wonderful things with Monocote, but makes it tough when he has to do a repair.
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The plan is to have some bright yellow and red there as well. Unfortunately 2013 has been quite busy and there hasn't been any progress on the Ninja. But I'll keep posting as that touch of colour I had planned starts to show up. Thanks for the tip!
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Bright is Sight, I had a guy say that to me once, I'm sure whatever you do it will look great, having never covered before it looks like you did a fine job on the fuse. Look forward to seeing the finished product :)
When I get back home off of this shift, I'll gather some pics of my brothers Ninja and hopefully get them on this thread. FF
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Antonio,
Going to try this download, I'll see if it works. My Brothers Ninja.
FF
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0005.JPG)
Bare Bones
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0018.JPG)
Little reenforcement
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0029.JPG)
Looks to need a bit of tail weight
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0031.JPG)
:shock: :shock: a bit more than I would have expeted
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/_DSC0008.JPG)
Bottom graphic all monocote
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0064.JPG)
Top graphic all hand cut monocote
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0086.JPG)
Ready for night attack
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nice covering job! :o
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The covering looks lovely in static display, very impressive. :clap:
Thinking about the extra weights, surely those weights were going in the nose not the tail, weren’t they? :?:
Keith
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CORRECTION, Still learning to renavigate this picture thing on this forum. You are right, I double checked and that is the nose that the weights are in :oops:
:oops: :oops: :oops:
I guess I looked too quickly at the photo and assumed that's where the horizontal sat :clap: :clap:
Anyway here's one more pic of it lit up at night I mislabled some of the above pics(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0040.jpg)
All lit up and ready for night attack :) FF
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Keith,
Yep, you're absolutely right, nose weight, nose weight, nose weight. Looked like a goodly amount too. :shock: The plane flies beautifully, like it's on rails.
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Hi Tracy,
Fantastic job on the covering! :clap: :clap:
And it's all hand cut on top of that!! :clap:
And I get lazy cutting some registration letters! :oops: :oops:
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Fred,
I wish I could say that I was the one that did the covering, it's my brothers plane he did the work, and yes he does a fine job on the covering :clap:
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Antonio,
Here's the picture of my old scratch built "Ridge Rat" with the Ninja colors, built in 1986
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0135.jpg)
(http://www.gliderireland.net/forum/images/uploads/Freedom%20Flyer/DSC_0129.jpg)
Shows up a lot better in the sky now
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Hey Antonio, Have you had your first flight with the Ninja yet?
We’d all like to see a full report please,……with pictures! 8)
I’m waiting with baited breath to hear all about it. :D
K.